Stirring the Deep

Hi Rachel,
I can’t wait to learn more about God’s work in your life, your book and your ministry. I have been inspeired by your writings and your web-site.
Looking forward to our lunch together.
Big Hugs,
Nancy

Hey man thanks for the great post. Look forward to reading more!

Dear Rachel,
Your video gave me great peace and deeper conviction of my own experience with the church system…may the Holy Spirit continue to guide and strenghten you.

blessings
donna

Just found your blog tonight and have been encouraged by your posts (and your tweets ) I especially liked your “Mountain Top Reflections” – a good reminder of how much trust we place in ourselves, our jobs, etc. and take for granted how He alone is the true Provider.

I’ll be back often – blessings to you !

when will your book be available??

i just discovered your blog (by a comment you did on http://hisbrokenbride.blogspot.com), and i really appreciate what i read on your blog.

totally agree with this formulation:”My source of truth is Living Word, the Bible, taught to me by the Spirit. ” having read the same Bible, men have done tons of different denominations. how can that be ?? … we desperatly need the guidance of the Spirit of God

“But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.” John 16:13

Your blog is amazing Rachel , you write really well. And its very encouraging. i would love to read your book whenever it comes out.

Hey,

I recently stumbled on your blog. Thus far, I resonate with many of your views. It is good to know that there are believers who want to accentuate the ‘essentials’ of the faith, and concern themselves with building a true relationship with God, that extends well beyond the strictors of the modern day church.

Rachel I don’t agree, obviously with what you are saying. Your message can be divisive, destructive and contrary to what God has declared in His word.

Thank you for you analogy I’m sorry you feel that way and think those things.

The church I see and I’m a part of is held together by the Holy Spirit to help transform people to His potential. I love being part of what Jesus is building by His Holy Spirit.

I’m not the one declaring a destructive message on the internet, but you have chosen to do this and it’s so loaded with untruths, fear, threats, guilt, condemnation that it’s hard to believe you are saying such things about His church. Your not talking about buildings and systems but people in buildings. You are talking about people living out what they believe is the will of God for their lives. I want to believe your intent isn’t to be like this but you clearly are not building but continue to tear down people in the church that go to a building.

You interpret scriptures from the OT and then say they are talking about the NT church or context. Then in NT scriptures you refer to worldly, ungodly things as the church. I’m sorry your premise leads you to speak against the church. It would do you well to build instead of tear down.

There’s a world that needs to hear the gospel, that Jesus loves them and can save them from their sins, death and the devil.

You quote this scripture in reference to the church… wow, unbelievable.
Eph 5:11
Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

Rachel your gospel is you won’t go to heaven if you go to a building that comes together as the church… that’s what I’m hearing you say. That is so shallow and void of God’s truth. It is the righteousness of Jesus that gets me into heaven, not some man made idea of a candy store.

The whole NT is speaking to a church that gathers together on a mission to fulfill the great commission. I want to be what the words shows us to be!!!

Acts 2:46-47
46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,
47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

Clayton

On the other side, just a true… isn’t is sad that there people in that same town sitting in their wood and brick homes because they can’t worship with those in the wood and brick buildings because they are better and more arrived in the spirituality to need to walk with them…

The question always is what is being worshipped. In some of those places they are worshipping wrong things and in others they are fulfilling what God set up in His Word – a large gathering of the saints and a small gathering in homes. Both of these are needed, not one or the other, but both. I good with home gatherings, life groups, cell groups, whatever you want to call them. Jesus had his 12 but he also made it a custom to gather at His Father house. The disciples in the book of Acts also continued this, Father’s House, and house gatherings.

We cannont fulfill the big picture of God’s plan by by sitting in your home as a soloist. Another eample; think about the generosity of the Macedonia churches in the NT they were known for the generosity for building the Kingdom. These were not soloist having home meetings but these were churches united in corporate vision for the Kingdom of God. Their heart was to, “share in this service to the saints.” Verse 5 kinda speaks why they did it!

2 Cor 8:1-5
1 And now, brothers, we want you to know about the grace that God has given the Macedonian churches.
2 Out of the most severe trial, their overflowing joy and their extreme poverty welled up in rich generosity.
3 For I testify that they gave as much as they were able, and even beyond their ability. Entirely on their own,
4 they urgently pleaded with us for the privilege of sharing in this service to the saints.
5 And they did not do as we expected, but they gave themselves first to the Lord and then to us in keeping with God’s will.

When we pull apart the army of God into little home gatherings we diminish the strength of the bodies gifts, visions, resources, finances, ect. We must work together. The Holy Spirit unites in spirit, so why and how can we ever think the same Holy Spirit is going to pull us apart into smaller soloist, individualized faith groups. I can’t do a lot things, but I can through supporting others by teaching, praying, financing, sending short missions teams, equipping, ect.

I have never worshipped a brand of Christianity and don’t believe a majority of Christians do either. I have however seen many people try to live out a indiviualized Christianity, which really is a contrast of truth in what Jesus showed us to do.

Matthew 26:42
He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”

- sounds like another account of Jesus showing us that we need to think about others over our will.

I’ll say it again; the church that gatherings in buildings fulfills the will of God together because each does it’s part.

Eph 4:11-16
11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
12 to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up
13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.
16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work. (NIV)

Clayton

Relationship with God and relationship with His church cannot be seperated. You have to love the church because Jesus died for it and sent the Holy Spirit and birthed the church. The address is where they gather in His name to fulfill His purposes. No gathering, no equipping – very simple. Eph. 4 is very clear on the purpose of the church.

When the Apostle Paul gave His life to the Jesus He immediately was brought in relationship with an address of the church. He wasn’t left to go home and discover His own revelation or to do whatever he wanted to do with this revelation. No, Paul joined in and built together what God was already building and doing. The whole Bible is filled with people that followed God in the same way, including Jesus himself…

This is not what is being said here on this blog. Why is it ok in the name of relationship to cut off relationships with people that believe in the church and why then promote this division and segregation of God’s people? The message given that I read is that those in the church (address) are lost and going to hell because God is done with it… that is not a message of relationship…

People need a connection point, a place of encouragement, worship, gifts of the spirit, prayer, discipleship, mentoring, vision for the world, ect. You will not get that on your own and by promoting a message of individualized faith. The body of Christ is not one and is not divided but the true body of Christ gathers together to hear from God and accomplishes His truth through the body of Christ because the Head is the body is Jesus who calls the shots.

Jesus established the church, eqiupped it, empowered it and continues to breath life through His church. Every where I go around the world I find the church of Jesus Christ commited to the commission of building, sacrificing their lives for the purpose of reaching the lost at all costs.

Clayton how can a building being made of living stones? Doesn’t make sense. To be living stone is us in the spirit. A building is made up of bricks and mortar.

“having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, CHRIST JESUS Himself being the CORNER STONE, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a temple in the LORD, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of GOD in THE SPIRIT.”

How can a building grow, not including a building campaign? it can’t but a body of people can, through and on Jesus the Messiah. You are hung up on the term church, you are held onto a physical meeting place, no one here is denying that this is wrong if someone decides to go to a building on Sundays for worship. If someone decides to stay home and fellowship in a different way how is that wrong? You have to remember much of what Christianity teaches is not biblical. There is no solid evidence and proof to why everything in the “church” or Christianity is done the way it is. The last thing I think Jesus said was go make disciples…but we got more busy into building pretty little churches, as Leonard Ravenhill would say, they ended up turning the church into a corporation.

You mentioned earlier that people who choose not to go to the traditional church think they are more spiritual. How can you say something like that when there are countless denominations that are blatantly doing that? The sheer fact of having another denomination just proves that they feel more “spiritual” because there doctrines are more biblical than the other. Not sure what your denomination is but you are doing the same thing, you are claiming we are doing by being more “spiritual.” why don’t you all meet with other churches and break bread together if you are so against that?

How do you feel about those who who can’t meet in gathering or “church”? Because of the area they are in? What about some of the elderly who can’t go to a building on Sunday? What about the homeless man or even the ex convict. Case in point an old friend who runs a Prison ministry was trying to find a local church to plug in a couple of ex convicts who surrender there life to Jesus, meet with the “pastor” to talk to him about them going there, the pastor declined because of there past. Not sure what it was, but nevertheless they were turned away, guess there was no room at the inn! Many churches have gotten into there own world,there own style and comfortable with there own demographic area that anything outside of that is questionable. Read John 9. The man born blind, here this man was born blind, questioned and questioned, his parents were questioned. What did they do…NOTHING, they were more concerned about being in the Synaque and afraid of the Jews(sounds like church authority to me) the didn’t want to get thrown out. The son however was thrown out, and Jesus met him outside of the their system. “Jesus heard that they had put him out and finding him, He said “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” Don’t misunderstand me I am not saying that you can’t meet the Lord Jesus outside of the “church” and all are lost and miss guided who go to a traditional church, I just think this chapter is a good example of what others held to the only way back then to worship and hear from God. Shows that God is SPIRIT and must worship Him in Spirit. John 4:24

“Anything that you love more than you love Jesus Christ is an idol. Don’t care what it is. I’m embarrassed to be part of the Church of Jesus Christ tonight, which is totally radically different from the New Testament, so impoverished, so blind, so powerless.”

“I’ve come to this conclusion: there is a move of God in America today but not amongst the unsaved. It’s amongst the redeemed who are determined by the grace of God to be part of the bride and to be part of the bride you’ve to be divorced from everything in the world.”

“Whisper in my ear that Satan has moved you up. He says you’re getting to be dangerous to his kingdom. He says you’re spoiling his plans, you’re thwarting his purposes, you’re pulling down his strongholds. We’re not pulling things out, we’re building pretty little churches and little rooms for people to sit around. If Jesus came back, He wouldn’t cleanse the temple. He would cleanse the pulpit.”
*** Leonard Ravenhill, prophet of his time.

Mike

I trust God and His word that declares an internal and external working of the church. What God does in side of us must come out of us for His glory. The church has an invisibile reality but must also have a external reality. The world looks to the external to see God, the physical church is so needed to display His glory in this world.

Now the no’s;
- no I don’t trust man over God, and by that I believe God to build His Church both physically and spiritually. Rachel your message to me sounds like a trust man more than trust God bc you are trecking your own thing and not what God has established and we are to building upon. Who are we, He is the builder we are to fulfill and build on it.
- no I don’t trust all churches, just like you would trust any gathering in a home that says they are spiritually minded towards God… does it sound like I’m the kind of person that wouldn’t speak to something wrong in the church… I don’t think so…
- no I don’t feel anyone is more spiritual, however I do believe people are being mislead and not following God’s will to build a church with leadership, accountability, equipping, sending, reach their community and world all from a physical gathering of the people of God.
- no I don’t believe those that gather in a building are all saved – some are some aren’t

Rachel you have said this about the church which stands out contrary to what I believe is truth found in God’s word;

“It contains of those of God and those not, though I believe the true church is separating itself from the system as the end draws near.”
- this statement is a not found anywhere in God’s word but I believe it shows that you are destructive of what God is building.

“However, what you see in scripture and today is a man-made system that has connected/overlapped itself with the true church. … how much more so now?”
- Rachel I see that you don’t believe in what the scripture speaks about the church which I do believe in 100%. God’s word is the only way.

“From my experience and observation, this separation is guided by the Holy Spirit, just as someone coming to really know Christ as Lord is– it isn’t by the persuasion of a person.”
- the same Holy Spirit that birthed the church on the day of Pentecost is now aborted it, that’s not the Holy Spirit.

“This individual seeking under the tutelage of Christ isn’t found in the lives of most church goers.”
- wow, how do you know that prehaps that judgement statement is at the core of what needs to change in your heart towards the church that gathers.

“The church is presented and structured to have people learn from people, to trust in their words and their interpretations of words, not learn from God. The church leads people to be disciples of other people instead of Christ.”
- part of discipleship is training and not only by words but by lifestyle. Jesus give this example as he trained His 12. Kind of sounds like the Apostle Paul’s words in 2 Cor 3:2-3
You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody.
You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

“The churches starve souls.”

- again wow… a general judgement on all of which their are true followers of God

“The truth is leaving the churches more and more every day. Most have not sought God, so it is going down the path of that choosing – lies, deception, which is the heart of Satan’s game play.”

- again a message of leaving the church is given. If Satan were to have a message would he be telling people to leave the church and become more individual… I think he would.

“Further, I haven’t said those going to church will go to hell.”

- that’s good, then because some of them are going to heaven AMEN!

“I don’t believe in the hell as most churches preach today for one. ”
- ok what’s this about? you don’t believe in hell… you’ll have to elaborate on this one please.

- Rachel what’s your doctrine, scripture is not against doctrine I want to hear your doctrinal statement after hearing that you don’t believe in hell I’m confused where that came from… PLEASE TELL ME YOUR DOCTRINE!

“I think God is far more merciful with His flock, as history shows, that has been lead astray by false doctrine. But that doesn’t mean they won’t suffer judgment and the consequences of following man instead of God. ”

- I believe you are saying the church that gathers will be judged for gathering. Ahhh, what’s going on here?

“Clayton, look at what the church had become when Jesus came to earth? Look at how He spoke to the Pharisees … do you not think the church could become corrupted again? Don’t you think God could do something new again at Jesus’ second coming as He did at His first? He will. The Bible speaks of the New Jerusalem. e are seeing the preparations for that. God set that up that structure that became corrupt – but then man’s doctrines took over making it something it was never intended to be. ”

- Rachel the local church that I’m a part of is incredible. We gather with churches from lost of denomination once a year. There is co-operation in evangelism efforts, prayer and ministries. All these churches believe in and preach Jesus as the only way to the Father. They all teach if you call upon the name of the Lord you will be saved. The global church in our world is growing at unprecedented numbers. More people are being won to the Lord today than ever before. Is there bad, yep but where God moves so does Satan… Take a look at when Jesus ministered there was some bad things going on, yet He kept building… Yes, one day there will be new Jerusalem but lots has to take place including the changing our flesh to a new ‘tent’.

Martin,

In reference to John 4, what an amazing word God has given us. This scripture is really speaks to the reality of a inner working of the Holy Spirit of which I am so thankful for. It also shows us that the reality of the Holy Spirit coming would mean that this New Covenant was open to all that would call upon His name, despite ethic background and location. This scripture speaks of the invisible global church, internal working of God in our lives. What we need to be careful with is trying to make say something it doesn’t. Does the rest of scripture ignore the physical church, no. The apostles were apart of building a church with leadership/accountability, ect. – to the will of God. That message is found in a majority of the New Testament.

For example Paul says this and then speaks of the qualifications needed for and elder.
Titus 1:5
The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you.

Mike,

Thanks Mike for your comments. Not sure you are getting what I’m saying. Of course I believe in the internal working of the Holy Spirit in our lives. I believe in both a spiritual and physically building of the church. There has to be a way to appropriate spiritually what is happening in our lives. It’s kind of like water baptism. I get water baptised not to be saved but to show that I am. The baptism doesn’t save me it just shows my commitment to God’s command to be baptised and publicly declare my commitment to Jesus Christ. When the church gathers together it doesn’t save them it just shows that they are committed to Jesus because of what He has done internally. I wear a wedding ring for the same purposes. The wedding ring is a symbol of my commitment but in no way does it make me married. Are all that gathered saved, probably not. Are all that don’t gather saved, probably not. When ‘christian’ choose to no gather with other church people to fulfill the call of God for them, the community and world then I do challenge them as to following God’s will or their own will. There’s nothing in my flesh to gather with a local church, it purely a spiritual commitment and testimony of my commitment and love for Jesus. I’m not saved because I attent a local church, no I attend a local church because I am saved.

When ‘christians’ reject gathering together in a group sense to resource their giftings, talents, time, for the work of God it doesn’t communicate a physical commitment of an internal working of the Holy Spirit in their lives. Why? Because it’s not biblical, it’s not based on the truth of God’s word and what it does is weaken their ability to affect and reach the world through joint efforts of the local church. Tell me what you can do by yourself and I’ll tell you what I can through the joint efforts of the local church I’m apart of. My efforts alone might be similar to you, but when joined with a group I become part of something powerful for God.

Denominations don’t bother me. What we doing on this site can be called defering denominations bc we don’t all agree with everthing that we are talking about. In our city we work with all the church here. Some more than others. We gather all together once a year for worship, prayer and word. We do joint evangelistic efforts. We gather in different location reaching different kinds of people in our city. Our local church reaches different people that the other ones reach, that’s not bad. When there is difference in personalities, intellect, emotional expression ect. people have to go where they feel connected. There are certain people that you connect with bc of similar connection points, what’s wrong with that? There are some church I would dry out in but man there are people in those church flourishing…

I believe you have to connect at any level you can. If you live in a city with 20 churches find one that is fulfilling the great commission and go for it. If your elderly and can’t get out of the home do something to bring the church in your home. The NT church always found a way to gather locally despite persecution or any other hinderance. There are churches that gather in heavy persecution areas, and they do whatever it takes to meet together and joint together in their efforts to win the lost. That’s happening in persecution while in North America people are finding ways to get out of gathering and join together in efforts to win the lost bc they would rather keeping looking inside their lives to become better. It’s time we starting looking outside and reaching the harvest that is ready.

The story you talk about is sad, and things happen like that probably more than we want to know. Personally speaking, we don’t have to ask to come to a local church, they should of went. There are probably people in the church that would of embraced those individuals and if not there’s another church down that street that would of.

Mike, I know there’s problems in the church, that’s because there’s problems in peoples lives. Hey, there were problems in Jesus day and the Bible says he came ‘in the fullness of time’ – the perfect time. It was a bad time, the Pharisees, Sadducees, Zealots, Roman rule ect. but it was a perfect time. Jesus was a perfect leader, mentor, example, totally truthful, fully God, fully man but guess what every disciple deserted him at the cross, one of the disciples took money to betray Him… If Jesus couldn’t lead people to perfect neither can we. Jesus knew all of that was there and all of that would happen and He still went through it all because it was the Father’s will… I don’t know if Jesus was embarassed of the disciples, the Pharisees, ect of His day but what I do know is that He didn’t desert them. He stayed connected, prayed, blessed, went to teach even at the synagogue, reached the lost, discipled a team of 12, the list could go on and on… The love of Jesus was displayed by connection not by disconnection. If we truley love people (which can only come from God’s love in us) then we need to build every bridge we can to include and gather as many as we can to reach the lost at every cost. Anyone and everyone could come to Jesus and feel exceptance and grace but they better get ready because truth would be next because God wants to save them… With the Holy Spirit we can stay connected and make a difference.

I can sit back and judge the church and those that gather in together and say lots of bad things about it but at the end of the day I can’t deny that Jesus said He was going to build the church and the apostles took that message a formed structures of leadership, church plants, ect. Was it spiritual yes, was it physically to yes. Only what is happening in the internal can be seen physically. Is it perfect, no but neither was the work that Jesus built even though He was perfect.

The Kingdom of God is here and we need to show the world what God has done in our lives. We need to build and not tear. We need to follow the letters found in God’s word that show us structure and not just a caotic, individualized faith and at the end of the day we need to ask ourselves – are we reaching the lost…? If not you need to change what you are doing because it’s not working… and it’s for sure off track to what God has called us to.

I don’t gather in a local church because I’m better or more spiritual. I gather in a local church because I’m not spiritual enough to know it all and need other voices that are perhaps younger in the faith, older in the faith, leaders, kids, youth, ect. I’m not capable of staying on track a single member of God’s family, but I need the whole body. I’m not capable of doing all things. I can only do part of the work but together with others the job is going to get down in our city.

Ephesians 4:16
From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.